a friend sent me a message on facebook that sparked thought about independence. she said the following:
"I remember reading a list from a book on your blog and one of the things mentioned money and men feeling the need to be the provider. I found that being independent made most guys feel uncomfortable and also caused them to not want to "do" anything "for" me, but with an attitude. As if they were silently saying, oh you can handle everything on your own, you don't need me. Me and another independent girlfriend both had this issue and starting talking about being independent by choice and by default..."
that got me thinking...is independence admirable or undesirable? does it have to be one or the other? since then i've asked this question of a few close folks in my life.
the single women i asked said that they agree with my friend's statement. they have felt penalized for trying to get and keep their lives in order. we've seen women who have the damsel-in-distress personality find love. but it seems like many more responsible women get overlooked or ignored because to some men, it looks like they don't need a man in their lives. but do women that are clearly in need of men in their lives really get more attention?
let me break this down for the men, (and women that don't identify).
the longer a woman stays single, the more responsibility she must take on. paying her bills, buying a car, (in my case, replacing a car after a stripper hits it on her way home from work at 3 am), getting a pet, buying a home, taking vacations, caring for sick parents and grandparents, planning for retirement, investing...the list goes on and on. that kind of woman has to daily balance work and who-knows-what-else. that means she's got a system and must maintain it so that her whole world doesn't fall apart.
you see, it's not that she doesn't need a companion in her life. it's just that no one has asked or taken the opportunity to figure that out.
women can't just say that when she first meets a man. could you imagine the fear it would strike in the heart of a dude if she were to say, "hey, nice to meet you. just so you know, i'm a highly organized hard-worker who has a lot on her plate. i'd love it if you would step in and be the man i've been waiting for so that i don't have to do all this on my own. i do need you, (or someone like you), to be a part of my organized chaos. when can you start?"
that, along with, "how many kids do you want?" "what's your stance on premarital sex?" "what's your relationship with your mom and dad like?" are highly inappropriate for first dates, right?
so how does a woman communicate that to someone when some guys make assumptions and never give her a chance?
a single male friend offered his opinion, too. he said that a responsible woman isn't a turn-off. but a controlling one is. yes. i definitely agree there. if, (once in a relationship), the chica cannot let her boyfriend serve her and lead them in the relationship, then that is a huge problem and stems back with submission. (yes, that dirty, ugly word that feminists want banned from the dictionary. but stay with me. the biblical definition of submission is not a woman that plays the doormat or doily-wearing church mouse.) a woman that cannot allow her man to lead the relationship needs to deal with that.
a married female friend said that some men in relationships take that independence for granted and let their woman do it all because he knows she can. that is a lazy man that should be avoided! in my opinion, that relationship will never be as fulfilling as it could be. in fact, i venture to say that it barely resembles the church and our relationship with God.
but i digress...
a married male friend said that it's a sign of immaturity if a guy doesn't pursue a woman he likes just because it looks like he doesn't have anything to offer her...that she's got "it" all together. he said that when he met his wife, he appreciated that she could take care of things if he weren't around all the time but would miss him while he was gone. is that true for most men? is that the kind of women mature men look for?
here's where i need your input: what do you think of independence in single women? do you identify with the i-get-ignored feelings? do you think all this is an excuse/cop-out controlling women use to make themselves feel better? is independence a turn-off for single men?
Hi Mandy! I didn't know you blogged, hope you'll check out my site.
ReplyDeletekjunveiled.blogspot.com
This is such a great topic. Donald Miller actually talked a lot about it this week on his blog- you might check that out AND read the comments, very controversial for some people. donmilleris.com
I really identify with this topic even though I was not fully independent (in the way that you're describing) when I started dating my husband. But I struggled in college and high school (which sounds so lame, since dating relationships then don't really matter as much as in your twenties but whatever) with wondering if I was "too independent" I was not the girl that would act like she needed help in order to get a guy's attention, although I saw very clearly that it worked, and that frustrated me- I actually hated the idea that we were made to need each others, and some of us were made to need a spouse. I thought if I needed someone that meant I was weak. I don't think that's true anymore.
I think independence can be very attractive, but you're right, it can't be controlling and it also needs to be an independence that's approachable. I think the problem is two fold- one there really is a problem with men in their twenties who just don't get it, and aren't ready to see what they really want in their life, much less in a woman, thus approaching an independent woman is not going to be on their list of things to do... being around someone who has it all together when you don't is not fun.
the second side of the problem is that some independent women come off (possibly unintentionally) as disinterested. It's like we go so far away from being the damsel in distress that we almost play hard to get. With the right guy, he'll overlook it and figure out how to reach you. The wrong guy will move on to an easier catch. I think it's ok to make clear your independence, but also show (slowly when you're newly dating) that you are ok with depending on him in some ways. Letting him plan the first date is a great way. showing how thankful you are when he does something for you (that can work for just a friend too). Giving your opinion, but being willing to listen to his and see his side.
Really, I think it is partially a culture problem... there's a lot of guys out there that just play around for awhile in their twenties and most women pursue a career or a passion... those women have to either wait for those guys to grow up, or hope they find one that's ready.
I really don't mean that as a slight to women or men, but it's just what I observed. Husband says that he did perceive me to be independent and did not find it to be a turnoff- for what it's worth.
Dr. Julianna Slattery wrote "Finding the Hero in Your Husband: Surrendering the Way God Intended". So I have not actuallly read it myself (a little busy these days) but I have listened to her discuss it on several occassions. And I think if you read this before you are married and take time to think through your own philosophy you would be way head of the curve.
ReplyDeleteWe have a close friend who had a strong wife and he was all too happy to step back and let her do all of the work. And she was all too happy to control everything (including the clothes that would "disappear" once she started doing their laundry). Don't get me started. They were divorced quickly and he took that baggage with him into his second marriage. I'm sure she did too.
A year ago a good friend of mine (you have to be a good friend to say this) suggested I read Dr. Debbie Cherry's "The Strong Willed Wife: Using Your Personality to Honor God and Your Husband". I *highly* recommend it. It was a turning point in our marriage.
You see, I am one of those strong, independant women. God and I are working through control, perfectionism and insecurity right now to name a few. Your post led to a great discussion with my husband. I had to know if my personality was a turn-off. I thought I knew the answer after 5 years of dating and 10+ years of marriage.
He said the fact that I didn't need to be "coddled" (his word) was a turn-on. He knew that I could make it on my own if I needed to. He liked it that I would go toe-to-toe with anyone when necessary and that I knew what I thought and could express it. He tended to steer away from women who appeared needy.
Now, has all of this personality caused problems in our relationship? You bet. I think it is true with any personality that if you are operating outside of who God wants you to be it will cause problems.
The same male friend I mentioned above "rescued" his current wife from an abusive relationship. She wanted a hero and he was up for the task.
Maybe the take-away is that God created us all to be different. But in His perfect plan our differences compliment each other. And in His perfect plan He uses the desireable and not so desireable to make us look more like His Son.
And to all the independant women out there: I say don't change who you are. Just make sure that who you are is who He made you to be.
Great topic Mandy... my wife, Lara and I got married young enough we hardly knew what we were doing. But we are both equally laid back so after 10 years of being married we've been able to negotiate (and renegotiate) a system that feels balanced to us.
ReplyDeleteWe met and married in our early 20s. It would be very different if we had met and married in our 30s.
The freedom women have to delay (or forgo) marriage in pursuit of career goals directly correlates with freedom men have to delay learning how to be the provider those women may eventually want.
But I wonder if the independent woman wants a provider? When marrying they would most likely want a more balanced approach: the couple have both had households into their 30s so they would just need to figure out how they can work well together.
But most couples are hardly that pragmatic. And by the time you're in your 30s you've most likely established your living habits.
Maybe one of the costs of being an independent woman is that you miss the window of adulthood where you and your spouse might both learn together how be grown up.
thanks you guys! your comments mean so much and are full of insight. i think it's interesting that i heard from only married people.
ReplyDeletebut then another single friend of mine sent me her thoughts:
" * what do you think of independence in single women? It’s an important survival skill, although sometimes it’s hard to let people help us after we’ve been independent for awhile. Leaning on Jesus and being vulnerable with Him (and our trusted friends/family) helps prepare us for a future healthy relationship.
* do you identify with the i-get-ignored feelings? - Yes & no. Guys who are inconsiderate and/or insecure are interested enough to toy with you without considering your feelings. They want to find a different girl that doesn’t intimidate them (or something). Men who are confident or courageous despite their fears or insecurities stand out like a full moon because they pursue purposefully & are more straightforward. However, it’s important to differentiate the honorable guys from the arrogant ones who think they are God’s gift to women.
* do you think all this is an excuse/cop-out controlling women use to make themselves feel better? Controlling people (men AND women) are generally the most insecure and deathly afraid of being vulnerable. Some even learn to fake vulnerability, which is weird. Women need to be honest and humble enough to let God (and friends) reveal the truth of their independence…is it healthy or mixed with unhealthy controlling tendencies? When we try to control everything, it reveals that we do not trust God with our lives and probably need to focus on our relationship with Him. Why don’t we trust Him? If we can’t trust God, how can we expect to trust sinful men? This leads us to put unreasonable expectations on men who are human beings and going to disappoint us at some point (and vice versa)
* is independence a turn-off for single men? Some guys need their self-esteem boosted by “needy” women. I agree that independent women have needs as well, but we generally don’t complain about it to guys, don’t want to use men, and/or refuse to exploit men’s affections when we aren’t interested. (Does that make sense? I hope I worded that correctly.)"
I read this post and these questions and I can't help but to wrap up with just one thought:
ReplyDelete"Lord, if my future wife is independent, strong-willed and gifted with leadership, then You will have to show me how to nurture her, care for her, serve her, lead her and love her well."
Whether she is too controlling or too naïve, it matters not if the center of her life is Christ and not me. I fully except that my future Godly marriage will be not just for our happiness but for our holiness and sanctification.
Are things different when pursuing and dating a single gal who has been on her own for more than a couple of years, generally speaking, of course. Does it matter? From my perspective, not really. Because God loved me in the way Christ loves His Bride and gave up his life for her, so too will I have that same chance to love her, lead her, serve her and give up my life for her.
Single guy out.